Re: Libye

[verié2]

Exagérations ? Ca semble en effet surprenant qu'avec un tel arsenal les forces de Kadhafi n'ait pas réussi à abattre au moins un hélico de l'OTAN...

Libye : plusieurs milliers de MANPADS dans la nature ?

Plusieurs observateurs avaient déjà tiré la sonnette d’alarme : on a perdu la trace de nombre de missiles antiaériens tirés à l’épaule dont était dotée l’armée libyenne. Reste que le phénomène pourrait avoir une ampleur plus importante que celle soupçonnée jusqu’ici, les dépôts semblant avoir été systématiquement pillés. Ainsi, selon Peter Bouckaert, directeur des situations d’urgence chez Human Rights Watch, « dans chaque ville où nous arrivons, la première chose à disparaître sont les missiles sol-air ».

Un certain nombre semblent avoir été volé par des combattants libyens – un lanceur et son missile valent plusieurs milliers de dollars au marché noir – mais le pire semble à craindre. Au total, la Libye aurait, selon des sources américaines, amassé environ 20 000 de ces missiles, dans des états opérationnels assez incertains. Officiellement, les SA-24 Grinch – le MANPAD le plus avancé au monde – ne pouvaient être tirés que depuis des affûts bitubes installés sur des véhicules mais la trace de véhicules porteurs semble perdue.

Même les missiles considérés comme périmés (déchargement de leur batterie ou défaillance de leurs poudres) sont susceptibles de poser problème à terme, l’Iran ayant effectué des annonces portant sur la mise au point d’un système de batteries amovibles spécifiques aux SA-7. Pour les analystes, la destination finale de ces missiles volés sera très certainement diverse : AQMI a certes été cité mais d’autres groupes, voire des Etats, pourraient également en bénéficier.

[Invité]

Prado croit encore dans les "experts internationaux"...Ah Sanctas Simplicitas! (façon latine de dire "quel c..!") Et quoi encore, au Père Noel?

Mais cela va ensemble. Quand on soutient une agression impérialiste, il s'en suit le soutient à la Charia, aux casques bleus, à la "démocratie" style Irak et Afghanistan..

Et il a espoir dans les "Casques Blues"... qui doivent avoir des vertus mirifiques, pas du tout servir aux impérialistes, ni agir comme des oppresseurs des populations locales (voir Kosovo). Ce sont des troupes impérialistes avec un casque bleu, point. En Corée, au Rwanda, en Irak au Kosovo et partout où c'est l'intérêt des impérialistes on les envoie. Qu'on soit à rappeler de tels évidences...

On a perdu des missiles sol-air? Les impérialistes ont encore joué les apprentis sorciers? (parce que l'avenir en Afrique et en Méditerranée va devenir "complexe"...)
"Créer problème, échouer; créer problème à nouveau, échouer encore et ainsi jusqu’à leur défaite finale, voila la logique des réactionnaires"

[irneh09218]

Je ne comprends pas toutes ces discutions, alors que le seul objectif est de faire naître la « conscience de classe ».
Le problème de cette conscience c'est qu'elle est en adéquation avec la « RESPONSABILITE INDIVIDUELLE ».
COMMENT PEUT ON PRENDRE LE POUVOIR SANS RESPONSABILITES...??
Alors les donneurs de leçons suite à des analyses « vaseuses »...je n'en comprends pas les sens...

Quant à vérié c'est du 1,5degré...

[Prado]

Prado croit encore dans les "experts internationaux"..
(...)
Et il a espoir dans les "Casques Blues"...
(...)
"Créer problème, échouer; créer problème à nouveau, échouer encore et ainsi jusqu’à leur défaite finale, voila la logique des réactionnaires"

C'est çà qu'on appelle péter les plombs ?

Elquenosalta devrait s'arrêter de sauter en l'air de temps en temps.
Même Lénine prenait du repos.

[yannalan]

Euh... Tu me sembles tout de même assez optimiste. Les médias relatent par exemple que des Imams de Tripoli se sont empressés de mettre la Charia en avant après les déclarations du CNT. La présence, comme chef militaire, d'un ancien djihadiste n'est pas non plus très rassurante.

La charia c'est comme la laicité en France, faut en parler, même quand on n'en a rien à cirer.
C'est ce qu'ils font.
Maintenant c'est sûr qu'il y a des courants plus islamistes que le moyenne, disons, mais la société libyenne en général est assez trad de ce côté-là. Sous Kadhafi c'était pas très souple non plus, les libyens allaient à Malte ou Djerba se défouler.

[irneh09218]

http://www.europapress.es/internacional/noticia-cnt-reitera-libia-convertira-estado-regido-sharia-20110913092659.html

[verié2]

Veni, vidi, vici...
Sarko se prend pour César

Nicolas Sarkozy se rendrait en Libye jeudi

LEMONDE.FR avec AFP | 14.09.11 | 08h02
Selon le site Internet de l'hebdomadaire Marianne, le président de la République pourrait se rendre dès jeudi 15 semptembre en Libye. "On sait que l'Elysée cherche à récolter tous les fruits de la victoire de l'OTAN, au terme d'une guerre largement inspirée par Paris", souligne Marianne2.fr.

Le chef de l'Etat devrait être accompagné d'une compagnie de quatre-vingts CRS, acheminée sur place à bord d'un Transall de l'armée française. L'hebdomadaire s'interroge sur la présence probable de ces hommes "appartenant à la CRS basée à Quincy-sous-Sénard, en région parisienne, dont aucun n'a jamais servi hors des frontières de la France. Consigne leur a été donnée de se tenir prêts à un départ mercredi autour de minuit, à partir d'Evreux, retour prévu dans la nuit de jeudi à vendredi".

[Invité]

Voila!
S'il te manquaient des infos sur l'occupation de la Libye regarde ce que toi même as posté

Le chef de l'Etat devrait être accompagné d'une compagnie de quatre-vingts CRS, acheminée sur place à bord d'un Transall de l'armée française. L'hebdomadaire s'interroge sur la présence probable de ces hommes "appartenant à la CRS basée à Quincy-sous-Sénard, en région parisienne, dont aucun n'a jamais servi hors des frontières de la France.

A t-on jamais vu un chef d'état visiter un autre pays souverain accompagné d'une compagnie des CRS?

Normalement on est accompagné de quelques policier de son escorte et on se fie aux service policier du pays amphitryon, mais une compagnie des CRS montre bien qu'on ne se gêne pas avec des libyens et/ou que la "situation n'est pas sous contrôle".

L'arrogance des impérialistes est sans limites et ils se contre foutent de ce que les "leaders" du CNT puissent dire, croire ou penser.

Le NPA sortira t-il un communiqué pour dénoncer la manœuvre électorale de Sarkozy qui "prétendrait s'approprier du triomphe populaire"? Ils en sont bien capables.

[sylvestre]

Un membre éminent du Conseil Militaire de Tripoli, et porte-parole d'Abdelhakim Belhaj, le commandant des forces dans la capital libyenne, était direct : "Djibril ne représente personne. Il n'est pas le bienvenu ici. Nous venons de combattre pour nous débarrasser d'un dictateur, nous ne voulons pas d'un autre."

Divisions grow in Libyan ranks after failed attack on loyalist stronghold

[verié2]

Elquenosaltaesmomio
L'arrogance des impérialistes est sans limites et ils se contre foutent de ce que les "leaders" du CNT puissent dire, croire ou penser.

Nous sommes bien d'accord sur cette arrogance des impérialistes qui se comportent en terrain conquis. De là à parler "d'occupation de la Libye", il y a de la marge.

Mais ce n'est ni sur la politique de l'impérialisme ni sur la nature du CNT que portent nos divergences, mais sur ce "soutien critique" à Kadhafi que tu estimes indispensable.
Je n'ai pas de nouveaux arguments à ajouter à ceux que j'ai déjà développés à ce sujet.
Mais je tiens à te dire que nous avons néanmoins une sensibilité commune de haine pour l'impérialisme et que je préfère à la limite ta position, du moins dans un Etat impérialiste comme la France, à celles de ceux qui soutiennent l'intervention, l'OTAN, l'ONU etc, même de façon un peu honteuse. Mais, de ton côté, tu devrais éviter de caricaturer les positions des gens et groupes qui se sont clairement exprimés contre l'intervention.

[Invité]

Mais Vérié 2 l'occupation est un fait. Les armées impérialistes occupent le terrain, désignent les gouvernants, dirigent la guerre et obligent les "rebelles" à se battre, préparent l'avenir de la Libye. que est ce qu'il faut de plus? Change "occupation" par "colonisation de nouveau type" alors, que est ce que cela change?

Les accusations contre les partis qui ont laissé de coté le mot d'ordre indispensable de "défense du pays agressé" sont obligatoires (cela implique le soutient au leader nationaliste qui se bat malgré sa nature. Voir l'exemple sur Chang Kai Shek). Et sur cela il ne peut pas avoir de compromis.

J'ai trouvé sur Internet un article du journal "Le Bolshevik" de juin 2011 où ce mot d'ordre et d'autres raisons avancées par moi s'y trouvent. Je sais que cela va donner lieu aux éternelles disputes sur la nature de ce groupe mais je ne suis pas là, ce qui m'intéresse ce sont les idées.

http://www.icl-fi.org/francais/lebol/196/libye.html

[sylvestre]

http://www.slateafrique.com/40233/islam-constitution-une-nouvelle-libye-pas-trop-laique

Les berbéristes vent debout contre le CNT

Mais il n’y a pas que ceux qui espéraient voir naître une Libye laïque qui risquent d’être déçus. Dans son projet constitutionnel, le CNT stipule que le futur État libyen aura pour langue officielle l’arabe. Certes, les droits linguistiques et culturels des Amazighs (les Berbères) mais aussi des Toubous et des Touaregs seraient garantis, mais cela ne remettra pas en cause la primauté de l’arabe.

Une option jugée inacceptable par les mouvements berbéristes qui activent au Maghreb, mais aussi en Europe et plus particulièrement en France. Pour nombre d’entre eux, la victoire contre Kadhafi est d’abord le fait de tribus berbérophones et il serait anormal que ces dernières n’obtiennent pas une plus grande place dans la Libye de demain, avec notamment une reconnaissance du berbère comme langue officielle.

«La déclaration constitutionnelle du CNT de Moustapha Abdeljalil pose les jalons d’une république islamique, note même le site berbériste francophone Tamazgha.fr. Cela est synonyme de la définitive éradication de l’amazighité. Inutile d’insister alors sur le pourquoi de l’acharnement avec lequel ce projet doit être combattu. Il faut barrer la route à ses porteurs avant qu’il ne soit trop tard!».

Après la bataille contre Kadhafi, le CNT va devoir faire face à une tâche qui risque d’être bien plus périlleuse, puisqu’elle consistera à définir dans les textes l’identité de la nouvelle Libye…

[Invité]

The fall of Tripoli reveals the new global balance of class forces: Statement by the Liaison Committee for the Fourth International (LCFI)
1. What does the fall of Tripoli mean for the global working class?
On the night of 21-22 August 2011 Tripoli fell to the NATO-rebel forces of world imperialism, with the assistance of NATO bombs and Special Forces from several imperialist countries and troops from Qatar and the United Arab Emirates. Despite the fact that powerful resistance continues it is clear that NATO and their stooges, the TNC rebels, have dealt a major blow at the independence of Libya. It is no satisfaction to have our direst predictions confirmed. In the Statement on Libya by the Liga Comunista of Brazil, the Revolutionary Marxist Group of South Africa and Socialist Fight of Britain on 21 April 2011 we said:
“The greatest proof that the "rebels" are nothing but butchers and Libyan agents of Imperialism is that they have invoked NATO bombing on their own people, as did the collaborators at all times of the class struggle since the Paris Commune Thiers (1871) to Lebanon (2006). As each day passes it becomes clearer that the native agents of Imperialism are merely open cat’s paws for multinational intervention in the country. They are racists and xenophobes, the enemies of all black working class Saharans in Libya. In the hunt for "Gaddafi mercenaries” they seek to demoralise the work force in the country, preparing it for the super exploitation in a new era of extreme Imperialist plunder. The Libyan "rebels" are bunch bourgeois turncoats from Gaddafi regime in favour of big business internationally.”

Nor did we make any concessions to third world apologists for the national bourgeoisie who sought to prettify Gaddafi, dismiss or excuse his crimes against the working class and so marginalise the political struggles of Trotskyist internationalism for the world revolution:
“It was the anti-working class, neoliberal policies of Gaddafi during the last decade that paved the way this reaction. Gaddafi has established new agreements with Imperialism, destroying the gains of the process of nationalisation of the means of production and post-1969 energy resources. Gaddafi banned trade unions and strikes and made racist anti-immigrant agreements with Berlusconi, he has sponsored the election campaign of Sarkozy and privatized and made auctions with the energy resources of Libya. Thus, the caudillo of Tripoli has lost popularity with the Libyan and African population and fuelled the appetite of sectors of the native bourgeoisie to negotiate directly with Imperialism, freeing up Gaddafi clan.”

What do we have to say to the following comment, all too common on the ‘left’?
“Whatever the contradictions of the situation the rebel victory in Libya strengthens the chances of rebellion in Syria, Yemen and Bahrain - if Gaddafi had won, Assad and the other tyrants would have felt stronger and repressed with even more vigour.”
Of course the complete opposite is the case, as Trotsky explained so well about Abyssinia, China and hypothetically Brazil in 1936, 1937 and 1938. Any victory for imperialism will strengthen chauvinism and reaction in the form of the hold of the TU bureaucracy over the working class primarily in the metropolitan countries where it MUST be defeated ultimately and challenged strongly now in order to advance the cause of the working class globally. And it will strengthen the pro-imperialist grouping and leaderships in all the rest of the countries engaged in the 'Arab Spring'. This can only point in the direction of defeat.

The argument that defeat will allow the working class to organise as a class in this region ignores the fact that the working class is a global class; a serious wound to its head will not allow its peripheral organs to function properly. This was the argument at the accession of Yeltsin in 1991, what serious Marxist does not now recognize that as a victory for neo-liberal imperialism and a defeat for the global working class? It is no accident that in this previous “4 August” moment for the left groups, the majority chose defence of “democracy” over defence of the nationalised property relations of the USSR. (On 4 August 1914 the German Social Democrats, the largest self-declared revolutionary Marxist party on the planet, voted the war credits to the Kaiser to enable WWI to begin its mass slaughter of the youth of a whole generation to solve its crisis of the rate of profit).

Even in Libya a defeat for Imperialism would not have returned it to the status quo. Gaddafi had been obliged to promise the renationalisation of the oil industry and had armed the masses. As Trotsky argues over Brazil,
“If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil. If Brazil on the contrary should be victorious, it will give a mighty impulse to national and democratic consciousness of the country and will lead to the overthrow of the Vargas dictatorship. The defeat of England will at the same time deliver a blow to British imperialism and will give an impulse to the revolutionary movement of the British proletariat. Truly, one must have an empty head to reduce world antagonisms and military conflicts to the struggle between fascism and democracy. Under all masks one must know how to distinguish exploiters, slave-owners, and robbers!”

The central point of our previous statement (Statement on Libya by the Liga Comunista of Brazil, the Revolutionary Marxist Group of South Africa and Socialist Fight of Britain, 21 April 2011) was the Military Anti-Imperialist United Front (MAIUF). Our position was Leninists because we kept our complete independence from Imperialism and Gaddafi. With this position we had a huge advantage over other groups. We honour Trotskyism whilst others "Trotskyists" have betrayed its essence. We believe that the MAIUF is the best continuity of the defensive tactics of Bolshevism and Trotskyism: Russia 1917 (Kornilov), Germany 1933 (Adolph Hitler), Abyssinia 1935 (Haile Selassie), China 1937 (Chiang Kai-shek), Brazil 1938 (Getúlio Vargas).

It is important to abstract the lessons of this struggle over Libya. This defensive concept has a wide application to other similar situations. A defeat of the remaining workers states of North Korea and Cuba, of any other oppressed semi-colonial nations or of any of the guerrilla organizations military fighting imperialism, Irish Republican, Colombian FARC, Maoists in India, Napal, etc. is a defeat for the global working class in their fight against their own ruling classes; the anti-imperialist struggle is an absolutely essential part of the class struggle. At the same time, we cannot be confused with those fake Trotskyists like Michel Pablo, Ernest Mandel, Guillermo Lora, Nahuel Moreno, James Cannon, Joseph Hansen, Pierre Lambert, Pierre Frank, Alain Krivine, Gerry Healy etc. who ideologically and politically capitulated to Stalinism and to semi-colonial petty-bourgeois nationalists like Tito, Ben Bella in Algeria, Castro, Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Yasser Arafat, etc. and many others. We have to make the class differences in the orientation of our fight against the imperialism.

But we demand critical but unconditional defence of the bureaucratised workers' states, all oppressed nations and all the guerrilla organizations fighting against imperialism. This is the touchstone by which we judge all international movements; for or against global finance capitalism, i.e. imperialism, the prime enemy of all progressive humanity.

Like the early Comintern we regard this as the natural extension of the United Front (UF) tactic in the domestic class struggle, with the trade union and labour movement leaders in struggle against the bosses where possible, without and against them where necessary to carry the struggle to victory. This is the UF from both above and below; demands on the existing misleaders of the working class, independently mobilising their base to set it against the leadership in struggle. This is the central principle of the rank and file tactic in the trade unions; no capitulation to the left trade union bureaucrats, mass agitation to mobilise the class into action combined with well directed propaganda to win to Trotskyism the class conscious natural leaders of the class that emerge in all serious struggle.

Paraphrasing the well known words of Leopold Trepper, leader of the Red Orchestra in WWII in The Great Game: Memoirs of the Spy Hitler Couldn’t Silence we can say, “Between the hammer of world imperialism and the anvil of bourgeois nationalism and centrist revisionism, the path is a narrow one for those of us who still believed in the World Revolution.” His following comments gives us courage and inspiration and a determination to politically fight to clarify and win to Trotskyism the new forces of that world revolution seen in the recent riots in Britain, in Greece, in Spain in Chile and elsewhere. Trepper commented later in the same book,
"Today, the Trotskyites have a right to accuse those who once howled along with the wolves… Let them not forget, however, that they had the enormous advantage over us of having a coherent political system capable of replacing Stalinism. They had something to cling to in the midst of their profound distress at seeing the revolution betrayed. They did not 'confess', for they knew that their confession would serve neither the party nor socialism."

2. Imperialism faces the worst financial, economic and political crises since the 1930s
And the rival imperialist powers have been intimidated to accepting the situation; pressure on Germany has cowed that rival and in turn Russia and China has been forced to accept that the military might of the US and its allies Britain, France and other smaller European imperialist countries cannot be challenged on a global scale. It is clear that this is very much the weaker Imperialist power bloc; they do not have the economic might to replace the dollar and they do not have anything like the military strength to oppose the US and its allies in a war. However there are really only two rival theories of world imperialism and we are Leninists; it will not be possible ultimately to resolve these inter-imperialist conflicts as Karl Kautsky thought. These will inevitably lead to WWIII and great revolutionary upheavals where the world revolution of decent into generations of barbarism will again be sharply posed.

But the sociological terminology has some purchase here; it is a multi-polar world now with the decline of US imperialism and the rise of the Asian economies – these now account for almost 36% of the world’s GDP, with the US and EU on about 20% and the rest of the world on about 24%. But the relationship is much different when it comes to military spending. Here the US military budget accounts for 43% of the world expenditure; almost six time that of its nearest rival China. The US has accused China of duplicity in its military spending data but “There is no such thing as a so-called hidden military expenditure in China,” Li Zhaoxing, spokesman for the Fourth Session of the 11th National People's Congress, said at a March 4 news conference announcing the budget. Whatever the truth of this allegation the massive imbalance cannot be denied.

Nevertheless imperialist rivalries and tensions continue to grow. According to the website Marsh on Monday on Aug. 22, 2011, Germany forced to make a choice: Us or them? We read;
“Last week’s meeting between French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, which brought more promises of “economic government” (called, unhelpfully, “economic direction” in German), predictably failed to calm the markets. Since there is no firm buyer of last resort to repel bond-market contagion, the viral assailants are now closing in on Berlin. Many of Merkel’s natural supporters are uneasily aware that, were Germany and other creditor countries to submit to demands that they formally pool government borrowing with the other euro states, that could mark the gradual end of Germany’s own economic sanctity.”
The logic of the crisis is forcing a choice upon Germany to split Europe no matter what it wants to do. If it is to bail out Italy and Spain after Greece, Ireland and Portugal – and France is also in trouble – how will it manage to avoid hyperinflation and economic collapse? As Marsh on Monday says,
“Wolfgang Reitzle, the well-regarded boss of industrial gas giant Linde, says he supports the euro “but not at any price.” Kurt Lauk, the head of the economic council of Merkel’s Christian Democrats, a former finance director of motor group Daimler and energy company Veba (the former Eon) even talks of a “currency reform” if euro supports arrangements fail to work.”

China is desperately propping up the Euro and demanding a new world currency to replace the dollar. But there is little prospect of that happening. The wars on Iraq and on Libya followed moves by both regimes to ditch the dollar, Iraq following Iran and adopting the euro as its oil currency and Libya promising to use a gold dinar which could see a new move to restore the gold standard to all currencies internationally.
But when Nixon abandoned the gold standard in 1971 (and so effectively defaulted on its international debts) gold was set at $35 to an ounce. It is now around $1,900 to the ounce and rising. Establishing a global currency based on gold would require gold at a far higher price and would also require the liquidation of such quantities of debt built up over the last forty years since Nixon’s fateful decision that it is as yet impossible to contemplate for the world imperialists. But there is no alternative; to prepare for this global currency the exploitation of the working class in the metropolitan countries combined with the subjugation of the remaining semi-colonial hold-outs must be enormously increased. And that really requires WWIII as the working class will not tolerate this and the rivals of US imperialism cannot tolerate their continued propping up of the US economy by means of the dollar’s positions as the global reserve currency. The consequent ability of the US treasury to print dollars in ‘Quantative Easing’ exercises forces the rest of the world to pay for US debts and, incidentally fund the enormous US military spending which is aimed ultimately at war on them.

What stage of the global economic crisis are we at? It is clear that the so-called ‘double dip’ theory explains nothing, this only applied to minor crises in the upward swing of a long term boom. Here it is clear we are in the period of a long term crisis of global capitalism, a crisis of its rate of profit, of its indebtedness, of its inability to expand production to pay this debt and of its necessity to go to war to solve this rate of profit crisis. Details like France’s manoeuvres against Italy over Libya reveal the change to protectionism in the minds of the ruling class and the seeming irrationality of the drive to war. But in reality this is the perfectly rational class interests of the capitalist class that is now so much a feature of this crisis.

In this connection it is very useful to quote Trotsky’s 1923 refutation of Professor Kondratiev’s long wave theory as schematic and non dialectical, ignoring the impact of current political events on dogmatic theories,
“The periodic recurrence of minor cycles is conditioned by the internal dynamics of capitalist forces and manifests itself always and everywhere once the market comes into existence. As regards the large segments of the capitalist curve of development (fifty years) which Professor Kondratiev incautiously proposes to designate also as cycles, their character and duration are determined not by the internal interplay of capitalist forces but by those external conditions through whose channel capitalist development flows. The acquisition by capitalism of new countries and continents, the discovery of new natural resources, and, in the wake of these, such major facts of “superstructural” order as wars and revolutions, determine the character and the replacement of ascending, stagnating or declining epochs of capitalist development. Along what path then should investigation proceed? To establish the curve of capitalist development in its non-periodic (basic) and periodic (secondary) phases and to breaking points in respect to individual countries of interest to us and in respect to the entire world market – that is the first part of the task.”

The US is provocatively patrolling the South China Sea and fomenting disputes over four separate groups of islands claimed by China. A recent article in China’s state-run Daily Times described the South China Sea as a “second Persian Gulf” according to an article on the WSWS website US imperialism and the South China Sea crisis on 26 July 2011. They go on to say:
“The South China Sea is also the key passageway for China’s energy imports. About 80 percent of all oil brought into China crosses the Indian Ocean from the Middle East and Africa, entering the South China Sea via the Straits of Malacca. Other Asian economies, including Japan and South Korea, are similarly dependent on the daily passage of oil tankers through the South China Sea, making the naval route a key strategic choke point.”
Following the imperialist war on Libya China, smarting at her obvious loss of influence and contracts there and in the rest of Africa, delivered a blunt warning to the US. According to the European Union Times on May 22nd, 2011,
“China has officially put the United States on notice that Washington’s planned attack on Pakistan will be interpreted as an act of aggression against Beijing. This blunt warning represents the first known strategic ultimatum received by the United States in half a century, going back to Soviet warnings during the Berlin crisis of 1958-1961, and indicates the grave danger of general war growing out of the US-Pakistan confrontation… Responding to reports that China has asked the US to respect Pakistan’s sovereignty in the aftermath of the Bin Laden operation, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu used a May 19 press briefing to state Beijing’s categorical demand that the “sovereignty and territorial integrity of Pakistan must be respected.” According to Pakistani diplomatic sources cited by the Times of India, China has “warned in unequivocal terms that any attack on Pakistan would be construed as an attack on China.” This ultimatum was reportedly delivered at the May 9 China-US strategic dialogue and economic talks in Washington, where the Chinese delegation was led by Vice Prime Minister Wang Qishan and State Councilor Dai Bingguo.1 Chinese warnings are implicitly backed up by that nation’s nuclear missiles, including an estimated 66 ICBMs, some capable of striking the United States, plus 118 intermediate-range missiles, 36 submarine-launched missiles, and numerous shorter-range systems.”

What does this mean for the future of the semi-colonial world? It is clear that there is a new ‘grab for Africa’ and victory in a war that apparently did not cost a single NATO life will encourage the unfolding of the plan that Gen. Wesley Clark revealed to Amy Goodman in that famous interview in September 2001, just after the 9/11 attack: “I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” -- meaning the Secretary of Defense’s office -- “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.”

They are a bit behind schedule but they are getting there. It is clear the Syria is next as that opposition has been definitely subordinated to the interests of Imperialism, despite the legitimate demands of the initial protests.
The “War on Terrorism” has brought death and destruction to millions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen etc but it has met with fierce resistance; there has been no easy victory for Imperialism there. The war on Iraq and Afghanistan sapped the economic and political strength of the US and strengthened Iran as the regional power, the total opposite of their intention. They are facing defeat in Afghanistan and in the last decade the rise of China has proceeded apace whilst the US and Europe have declined as global imperialist powers.

3. Israel’s war on Palestine and the ‘Arab Spring’
Israel’s war against the Palestinian nation has led to its increasing isolation. This lynchpin of US policy in the region now faces hostile masses the whole of the Middle East and North Africa. The radicalisation of the Egyptian working class and that of the whole region is shown by the emergence of powerful anti-imperialist sentiments which were held back by the petty-bourgeois leadership of the revolt at the beginning of 2011 and confused by the war on Libya.
Israel itself faces attacks on four fronts.
i) The Egyptian masses forced the breaking of the siege of Gaza in May as Wikipedia reports “Egypt opened the Rafah border crossing permanently on 28 May 2011. Women of all ages and men aged below 18 and above 40 are able to enter Egypt without a visa, although there are still severe restrictions on the movement of personnel and goods to and from Gaza. In practice, however, a great deal of goods are smuggled in through tunnels between Egypt and Gaza, and the quantity of goods smuggled in has increased greatly since the Egyptian revolution in early 2011”. This has now been followed up by the sacking of the Israeli Embassy on 9 September following the murder of five Egyptian border guards and Palestinian fighters by the Israeli army. This follows the car bomb attack on at the United Nations headquarters in the Nigerian capital, Abuja on 26 August. Although it was carried out by the Islamist group Boko Haram (figuratively, "Western or non-Islamic education is a sin “according to Wikipedia), who are fighting to establish Sharia law in Nigeria its attacks are clearly directed in this instance against a symbolic presence of western Imperialism.

ii) Even more worryingly for the US and Israel Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan visited Cairo on 12 September in the first visit of its type in 15 years because the masses in Turkey are outraged by Israel’s refusal to apologise for murder of 9 Turkish activists by Israeli commandos on the Mavi Maramara on 31 May 2010. Erdogan has promised to supply Turkish naval escorts for humanitarian aid ships bound for the Gaza Strip. But it is one thing for Israel to slaughter Palestinians at will, it is quite another to visit national humiliation on a major nation like Turkey. Al Jazeera reported him as saying, "We have humanitarian aid to be sent there. And our humanitarian aid will not be attacked anymore, as happened to the Mavi Marmara. Turkish warships will be tasked with protecting the Turkish boats bringing humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip."
Clearly Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has overplayed his hand following the fall of Tripoli; masses have played a big part in pushing both Cairo and Egypt into feigning opposition to Israel. But they also have their own futures to think about, they are not just pushed by the masses; “the coalition of the willing” is coming apart at the seams. Let us remember that Gaddafi was a trusted ally of Imperialism at the start of 2011. Clearly the rulers of all semi-colonial regimes in the region with any elements of national independence are now fearful for their own futures; the principle of humanitarian intervention could apply not just to Syria but to any of these now. They are warning the warmongers of France, Britain and the US to back off as their main ally in the region is vulnerable and increasingly isolated. But they surely will be careful not to push this too far and meantime both regimes are assisting the pro-imperialist opposition in Syria, again keeping their options open with the US.

iii) The UN votes on recognition of Palestine as a separate state is due on 20 September. The LCFI does not believe in a two state solution to the Israel Palestine conflict; a separate Palestine state would strengthen the racist Zionism state ideologically and by population transfers and the Palestinian state could never be any more than a Bantustan for Palestinians, without even the degree of independence of the most oppressed of present-day semi-colonies. However this vote at the UN has created a huge crisis for Israel and its puppet Mahmoud Abbas who is the Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) and still claiming to be President of the Palestinian National Authority although his term of office ended on 9 January 2009.
The US has vowed to cut all aid to the Palestinians if they press the vote at the UN but enormous problems exist on all sides. If they do not press the vote the masses in the region will be even more outraged than now, as shown the fact that Qatar headed a delegation of Arab foreign ministers to urge the permanent members of the Security Council to vote for Palestinian UN membership.
“The delegation was headed by Qatar, who interesting enough is both rich in oil and hosts the largest US military base in the region rent-free, which is the location for Centcom, the US military command center for the Middle East and Central Asia… the Arab League, which consists of old American allies Saudi Arabia and Egypt, pledged in July to “take all necessary measures and to rally needed support of all world countries, starting with members of the security council, to recognise the state of Palestine…and to win full membership of the United Nations. In addition, the Former Saudi Arabian Ambassador to the US recently revealed that “There will be disastrous consequences for U.S.-Saudi relations if the United States vetoes U.N. recognition of a Palestinian state,” said Prince Turki who is believed to reflect the thinking in Riyadh.”
Going global - east meets west - articles of interest, http://articlesofinterest-kelley.blogspot.com/2011/09/tuesday-september-20th-united-nations.html

iv) The internal revolt in Israel is causing a huge political crisis. Upwards of 400,000 demonstrated in Israel on 3 September in a movement that began on the housing question and then moved on to outright opposition to the entire neo-liberal agenda of Netanyahu. Clearly part of the uprising in the entire region it raises the possibility of united class struggle between Jewish and Palestinian workers and thence with the working class of the entire region.
Whereas demonstrations against war have been frequent in Israel this is the first mass demonstration on social issues. And as such it has attracted Palestinians in big numbers with placards in both Hebrew and Arabic; from Haifa and Afula in the north of the country to the international tourist resort of Eilat in the far south. But the issue of Palestine itself was not mentioned by the TU bureaucrats leading the march; in fact Ofer Eini, the leader of the Histadrut did everything to keep the demonstrations within reformist bounds, as the petty bourgeois leaders had done in Egypt. But they may not be able to achieve this. On 20 September imprisoned Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouti has called for mass marches on the day of the UN vote on statehood for the Palestinians and the Palestinian Authority has been forced to echo his call. They have called for millions to attend, clearly hoping for mass Jewish participation. The campaign will be called “Palestine 194″; Palestinians would be the 194th member of the UN. Any sizable Jewish participation will be disastrous for Ofer Eini and Netanyahu.
According to Wikipedia:
“Ben-Dror Yemini, an editor at Maariv, used his 26 August 2011 weekend column to report a strong left-wing turn of the protests that would attempt to connect the 'social justice' to the events leading up to anticipated September protests on the West Bank. Yemini revealed an agreement summarized after protest leaders met with left-wing leaders and anarchists including the heads of The National Left and Peace Now to discuss combining activities such as marches to the 'border' and to bring the Palestinians into the protest.”
The new Grab for Africa, as well as the Grab for the Middle East has now established a pattern; internal opposition calls in outside help from Imperialism, regional stooges give their support, without the votes of South Africa, Nigeria and Gabon the No Fly Zone resolution would not have passed through the UN Security Council. Then bombing campaign can begin to install the new more-western friendly regime. Now the counter-revolution moves on to Syria. Despite the brutality of this regime it is as clear as it was in Libya in February that the US, Turkey, Saudi and Lebanon have now dominated the opposition whose agenda is pro-imperialist. They really have hijacked this uprising now (none of them were revolutions). And Turkey, lest we get the impression that there is anything genuinely anti-imperialist in its (temporary) opposition to Zionism, is seeking to take the leading role in forging the pro-imperialist oppositionists into a united grouping capable of forming a pro-western government. According to the WSWS website, “It has therefore hosted several conferences of Syrian dissidents in an attempt to form a unified opposition with which Turkey and the major powers can do business. Last week, Syrian oppositionists meeting in Turkey announced the formation of the Syrian National Council, consisting of 94 members and with Burhan Ghalioun as president.”
But the danger of the whole uprising degenerating into fratricidal religious and ethnic warfare, like in Iraq is clear. The Kurdish forces did not attend Turkey’s conferences for obvious reasons, their nationals are being bombed in Turkish Kurdistan as we write and Saudi Arabia is financing Sunni Salafist armed militants against the minority Shia and Alawite sect of Assad and the military generals. And oppositions are also seeking assistance from the Egyptian military. And, of course, the US itself is funding oppositionists and intervening through the CIA.
And of course the ultimate target is Iran, the other major power in the region with huge oil resources vital to both the US and to China. The difficulty for Imperialist intervention is that there is no special area controlled by Syrian rebels to give them a bridge head from which to advance a ground assault. And an attack compromising intervention by the troops of any other regional power like the Saudis or Turkey would mean the Iran would be obliged to go to war immediately to defend its ally, Assad. Unfortunately the intervention of the working class as an independent force is not likely here, unlike in Tunisia, Egypt and even Bahrain. This ‘Arab Spring’ revolt now belongs to Imperialism, so we must offer our critical support to Assad in another MAIUF.
South Africa too is experiencing its own mini revolt because of the global crisis linked to the war in Libya. Of course it is the complete betrayal of the black masses by ANC government of Zuma which has fuelled this uprising but it has a new champion, ANC youth leader Julius Malema who is now seeking to fill the role that Winnie Mandela once filled. He has been given only a warning and partial court cost after he was found guilty of singing “shoot the boer”. However was still charged with expulsion from the ANC together with the entire ANCYL national leadership, Malema’s deputy Ronald Lamola, secretary-general Sindiso Magaqa, his deputy Kenetswe Mosenogi, treasurer-general Pule Mabe and spokesman Floyd Shivambu. He faced charges of bringing the ANC into disrepute, sowing divisions within the party and for his comments that whites are criminals. His real crimes are to challenge Zuma for the leadership of the ANC and calling for nationalisation South Africa's mining industry. On June 16 at a Youth Day event he accused whites of "stealing land" said, "The only option is to take the land without compensation, if you refuse to give us an alternative”.
Of course this is demagogic grandstanding but it does reflect the growing anger of the masses at the increasing inequality of a society which is now among the most unequal in the world, worse than it was under apartheid.

According to the Times live online on 11 September Malema,
“scored a minor political victory over Zuma after the cabinet expressed displeasure about the Botswana government's recognition of Libya's national transitional council. While Malema has been charged for ill-discipline for advocating "regime change" to remove Botswana's "puppet" government, he found allies in the cabinet on Wednesday.
The Minister of International Relations, Maite Nkoana-Mashabane, briefed the cabinet about Botswana's decision to break ranks with the African Union position not to recognise the Libyan council as the country's interim administration. Apparently cabinet members were angry about Botswana's move, although the cabinet released only a mild statement restating South Africa's commitment to the AU's road map on Libya.”
This reflects also not only the upsurges of the masses in South Africa against imperialism but also SA affiliation to the BRICS group which with Germany is now a rising imperialist rival power bloc in increasing conflict with the more bellicose and blood thirsty imperialist bloc of the US, UK and France. Malema has also distanced himself from China, the memory of the 1977 debacle when China found itself on the side of Jonas Savimbi’s UNITA and the invading Apartheid army in the Angolan civil war is still fresh in South Africa. In other words he is seeking to manoeuvre between imperialist powers and is looking for a form of neo- Keynesian capitalism at home, not to direct the anger of the masses against capitalism itself.
All the semi-colonial bourgeois will be increasingly caught between the uprisings in the Arab world and elsewhere and the necessity of Imperialism to wage war in defence global finance capital. Despite the fall of Tripoli forces loyal to Gaddafi continue to resist fiercely and now the very direction of the “Arab Spring” is again in the mix as insoluble problems press on imperialism and the masses push forward to reclaim the initiative partially lost in Libya, particularly in Egypt.
We are confident that the British riots that began in Tottenham on 6 August after the police shooting of Mark Duggan are a portent of the coming revolution, a reflection of the deep going anger and despair of a whole generation of youth denied a future and consigned to criminalisation and oppression as the economy enters a new phase of its crisis; the sub-prime crisis of banking debt has been replaced by sovereign debts of whole nations which is insolvable – bourgeois commentators have taken to quoting Marx and some even Lenin in reference to the currency crisis. These were an expression of the holding back of the class struggle on behalf of the capitalist class by the TU bureaucracy, like the Chilean high school and college students who are demanding free, quality education and are fighting against the neo-liberal politics of the right wing government which has lead to such appalling levels of inequality. Similar also were the Banlieu riots in France in late 2005 and those of the picateros in Argentina in 2001-2.

In the United States itself, the land of the mightiest imperialist power the world has ever seen, trade union struggle is practically illegal following the Wisconsin attack on union rights in February 2011 and the WSWS site reports on the latest statistics on poverty in the US:
“The poverty rate increased nearly a full percentage point, from 14.3 percent in 2009. It was the third consecutive annual increase in the poverty rate and the fourth consecutive annual increase in the number of people living in poverty. Last year, there were 46.2 million people living in poverty, defined at the absurdly low level of about $22,000 a year for a family of four and $11,000 a year for an individual. The number of people earning less than twice the poverty rate (about $44,000 for a family of four) stood at 103 million in 2010, or about 34 percent of the population.”
The laws of history are stronger than the bureaucratic apparatus, Trotsky affirmed, the bureaucrats will be swept aside and the whole class will being to fight for its life and future internationally. This does require a new Trotskyist international, a recreated Fourth international. That is the prime task the present crisis poses to all serious militant and Marxists internationally.

[Roseau]

Des fois il n'y a que la poubelle pour trouver un appui.
La même chose que la secte Socialist Fight qui fait partie du même réseau de sectes paranos, qui communient y compris dans la défense de l'Empire de la Corée du Nord!
C'est rare de voir ça sur un forum de MR, résolument au côté des peuples,
contre l'impérialisme et ses valets de toute couleur.

[verié2]

Avec BHL dans ses bagages !

14 septembre 2011
Nicolas Sarkozy jeudi en Libye avec Cameron et BHL

Nicolas Sarkozy se rendra demain en Libye, à Tripoli puis à Benghazi, accompagné du premier ministre britannique David Cameron et du philosophe Bernard-Henri Lévy. La délégation doit visiter un hôpital à Tripoli, rencontrer les dirigeants du Conseil national de transition (CNT), Moustapha Abdel Jalil et Mahmoud Jibril, puis tenir un petit point presse. MM. Cameron et Sarkozy s'envoleront ensuite pour Benghazi où ils tiendront un discours sur la place de la Liberté.

La visite tombe alors que les déconvenues s'accumulent pour M. Sarkozy: rebondissement dans l'affaire de Karachi, mise en cause des contrats signés avec le guide Kadhafi, aujourd'hui introuvable, au début du quinquennat et relaxe de Dominique de Villepin dans l'affaire Clearstream.

La politique intérieure n'étant jamais loin, M. Sarkozy est certain d'avoir de belles images pour les journaux télévisés jeudi soir relatant son allocution à Benghazi: l'intervention menée par Paris et Londres a permis d'éviter le bain de sang promis par M. Kadhafi. Cela tombe bien, c'est pile le jour du premier débat de la primaire socialiste pour la présidentielle de 2012.

M. Sarkozy est un accoutumé: le 28 juin, jour de la déclaration de candidature de Martine Aubry à la primaire socialiste, il avait saturé l'espace médiatique: conférence de presse la veille sur les bienfaits du grand emprunt, visite champêtre dans la Sarthe avec François Fillon -c'était une première- au moment pile où Mme Aubry se déclarait candidate. Et pour couronner cette belle journée, Christine Lagarde avait été désignée directrice générale du FMI pile avant les journaux de 20 heures, réduisant d'autant la part du PS.

Et le nombre de flics destinés à "sécuriser" (!) Tripoli qui a doublé depuis les premiers articles...

Libye: éventuelle visite de Sarkozy, 160 policiers envoyés en mission

PARIS (AFP)
Cent soixante policiers, en majorité des CRS, tous volontaires, étaient mercredi en partance pour la Libye pour une mission de "sécurisation" à Tripoli, alors que des informations de presse faisaient état d'une possible visite sur place de Nicolas Sarkozy jeudi.

Ces policiers étaient en partance pour une mission de "sécurisation en vue d'un déplacement sur place" du président de la République, ont indiqué des sources policières, confirmant partiellement une information du site internet de l'hebdomadaire Marianne.

Sollicité par l'AFP, l'Elysée n'a pas fait de commentaire. Ce déplacement jeudi ne serait qu'"une option" pour la présidence, rapportait lefigaro.fr.

Pour la mission de sécurisation, deux vols distincts étaient prévus au départ de France mercredi en fin d'après-midi, les policiers ayant reçu pour consignes d'être en civil --"pantalon jean, pas de treillis, des chaussures souples" - et d'avoir pour bagage un sac à dos contenant notamment "trois litres d'eau, une ration de combat, six barres de céréales".

Les instructions, toujours selon les sources policières, mentionnaient que les fonctionnaires ne devaient pas être munis de carte professionnelle, ni d'appareil photo ou de téléphone portable mais d'un gilet pare-balles.

Le retour est prévu vendredi et les policiers auront la charge de sécuriser notamment un hôtel, un hôpital et un troisième point de passage à Tripoli.

Une mission équivalente de ces policiers à Benghazi n'était pas non plus exclue par ces sources et il a été fait appel aux CRS, dans les différentes compagnies, sur la base du volontariat.

Un avion de fret devait transporter les "armes de service" qui seront prises en charge par le Raid, l'unité d'élite de la police, également sur place en Libye, ont précisé les mêmes sources.

Le 1er septembre, à l'issue d'une conférence sur l'avenir de la Libye organisée à l'Elysée, Nicolas Sarkozy avait assuré qu'il se rendrait en Libye lorsque les autorités du Conseil national de transition (CNT), l'organe politique de la rébellion, seraient "installées" dans la capitale Tripoli. Ce qui est chose faite depuis ce week-end.

[irneh09218]

Prum..
Sarko est arrivé avant Erdogan.

Que les médias disent la vérité :
http://www.aporrea.org/internacionales/n188557.html

Le CNT prévient qu'une contre attaque est imminente dans le sud de la Libye :
http://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20110915/54216391183/el-cnt-advierte-de-que-gadafi-prepara-ataques-de-revancha-en-el-sur-de-libia.html

Le clou du spectacle Sarko gaché par le peuple :
En BFMTV:
« on attendait des milliers de personnes ici pour venir acclamer Sarkozy et il n’y-a que quelques centaines de personnes tout au plus… »
« 200 personnes environ sur la place de Benghazi pour une intervention qui devrait démarrer dans quelques minutes »

Parler devient pire que sous Gadhafi :
http://rt.com/news/tripoli-rebels-people-fear-607/
Et notamment :
“We will do anything for Muammar, only Muammar! Even if we give our life for that!” claims one street vendor, while hiding her face from RT’s camera.

In today’s Tripoli, it is becoming a commonplace to meet people who are afraid of speaking openly to journalists as RT’s team discovered on the streets of the city. This is how one encounter went:

“All people here love MuammarGaddafi.”
“We are from television – could you tell us that on camera?”
“No, no.”
“Why?”
“This is dangerous…”

Plus la découverte d'assassinats de soldats proGadhafi par les brigands, etc

[verié2]

Les chassepots, les stukas, les B 52, les exocet et... les rafales ont fait merveille !

La guerre en Libye, vitrine commerciale pour l’aéronautique française
France Info - 16:33
Nicolas Sarkozy et le Premier ministre britannique David Cameron se sont rendus aujourd’hui en Libye. Il faut dire que les deux hommes sont les principaux animateurs de la coalition qui a soutenu militairement les insurgés libyens. La France espère bien profiter de son rôle moteur dans la coalition internationale pour bien se placer sur un marché riche en opportunités. Tout le secteur aéronautique et militaire impliqué dans le conflit attend des retombées. On pense notamment au Rafale. L’avion a réalisé des "prouesses" dans le ciel libyen. C’est plutôt une bonne nouvelle pour Dassault Aviation qui n’a pas réussi jusqu’ici à placer à l’étranger cet appareil.

La France s’est engagée dans les opérations de la coalition en Libye le 19 mars. Elle a joué un rôle moteur contre les troupes fidèles à Mouammar Kadhafi. Et aujourd’hui, elle espère bien en tirer partie.
En six mois, les Rafale français ont accumulé plus de 6.000 heures de vol depuis le début de l’opération Harmattan.

Selon le ministère de la Défense, au 7 septembre, près de 1.900 sorties ont été réalisées par ces avions. Au total, selon l’Etat major des Armées, les aéronefs français ont réalisé 4.500 sorties. L’armée de l’air fait encore 20 à 25 sorties par jour.
Il faut bien avouer que l’exposition du Rafale sur le théâtre libyen peut redonner des ailes à Dassault aviation. Le constructeur aéronautique n’a pas réussi jusqu’ici à placer à l’étranger cet appareil polyvalent réputé l’un des plus performants du monde mais aussi l’un des plus chers.

En Libye, le Rafale a démontré sa grande maîtrise technique et sa capacité de frappes. Comme Gérard Longuet il y a quelques semaines, le chef d’état major de l’armée de l’air a vanté les qualités de l’opération Harmattan et les qualités du Rafale. Pour le général Jean-Paul Palomeros, ce conflit est “avant tout une démonstration de savoir-faire et des capacités de nos équipements”. Le Rafale, dit-il “a fait la démonstration de toutes ses capacités, de sa polyvalence”.
C’est une aubaine pour la France. Eric Denécé, directeur du CF2R, le Centre français de recherche sur le renseignement, estime que “c’est une excellente chose pour le Rafale, qui a fait ses preuves dans une opération réelle”. “C’est un véritable coup de pouce pour l’exportation de cet appareil”.
La guerre en Libye une vitrine pour l’aéronautique en France. Eric Denécé, directeur du CF2R, le Centre français de recherche sur le renseignement avec Mikaël Roparz. (3'23")


Chez Dassault, on reconnaît que ce conflit en Libye a “permis au Rafale de démontrer ses qualités ”, mais on refuse de parler de “vitrine”.

Les Emirats qui négocient avec la France depuis plus de 3 ans auraient fait part il y a quelques jours de leur intention d’acheter 60 Rafale. Ils pourraient même redonner à la France leurs vieux Mirage 2000, qui seraient alors revendus à la Libye.

Des négociations sont en cours avec le Brésil et l’Inde.

_____

« on attendait des milliers de personnes ici pour venir acclamer Sarkozy et il n’y-a que quelques centaines de personnes tout au plus… »
« 200 personnes environ sur la place de Benghazi pour une intervention qui devrait démarrer dans quelques minutes »

Pas très grave. Suffit de savoir les filmer pour donner une impression de foule immense à la TV. On aura peut-être des détails croustillants sur le voyage de Sarko-BHL-Cameron dans le Canard Enchaîné de la semaine prochaine...

[verié2]

Le CNT prévient qu'une contre attaque est imminente dans le sud de la Libye :
http://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20110915/54216391183/el-cnt-advierte-de-que-gadafi-prepara-ataques-de-revancha-en-el-sur-de-libia.html

Ce genre d'info est toujours difficile à interpréter :
-D'un côté Sarko et Cameron ont intérêt à raconter qu'ils ont gagné la guerre, que c'est plié. Le CNT y a aussi intérêt pour décourager toute résistance...
-... mais le CNT a aussi intérêt à montrer que le danger kadhafiste demeure, à la fois pour tenter de souder ses troupes disparates et pour continuer à bénéficier de l'aide militaire de l'OTAN. On ne peut pas exclure non plus que les futurs "dissidents" contestant l'autorité du CNT ou de ce qu'il en restera soient très vite qualifiés de Kadhafistes ou de complices des kadhafistes par les tenants du pouvoir...

En période de guerre, il n'y a pas d'information, il n'y a que de la propagande !

[Invité]

Voila qui se dévoile encore la réalité, même pour les capitulards et les social-traitres.

Sarkozy, le triomphatuer, l’initiateur de cette entreprise néocolonialiste, a été incapable de tenir un meeting à Tripoli et à Bengahzi il à fait un four.Heureusement d’ailleurs, il ne manquait plus que les peuples viennent acclamer leur bourreau et s'en féliciter de celui qui va leur prendre leur richesses naturelles.
Tous les "chefs de gouvernement" se précipitent sur le cadavre encore tiède de la Libye pour arracher un morceau de leurs crocs. Qui arrive en premier, qui arrache le contrat le plus juteux, qui soutient celui-ci ou celui-la parmi les bandits assassins de la classe ouvrière immigré.

Cet spectacle dégoutant, mal monté, encore plus mal suivi, prépare la campagne électorale de Sarkozy. Préparation qui a eu le soutient actif ou "neutre" des social-traitres qui ont honteusement capitulé devant la seule propagande des impérialistes.

Encore une défaite, encore un triomphe éphémère des impérialistes. Mais le combat continue et Sarkozy a donné l'ordre de se défaire au plus vite de Gadahfi.

Voyez vous maintenant clair? Comprenez vous pourquoi mettre sur un même plan Gadahfi et l'impérialisme c'est faire le jeu des impérialistes?

Ah je n'ai pas assez des mots de mépris et de condamnation pour une telle politique lâche et capitularde!

[Invité]

« on attendait des milliers de personnes ici pour venir acclamer Sarkozy et il n’y-a que quelques centaines de personnes tout au plus… »
« 200 personnes environ sur la place de Benghazi pour une intervention qui devrait démarrer dans quelques minutes »



Pas très grave. Suffit de savoir les filmer pour donner une impression de foule immense à la TV. On aura peut-être des détails croustillants sur le voyage de Sarko-BHL-Cameron dans le Canard Enchaîné de la semaine prochaine...

La servitude de la presse est telle que le figaro écrit "le voyage entre Tripoli s'est fait en hélicoptère" (pas fou Sarkozy, ce "héros" comme l'ont présenté les "journaux" télé de midi)..."parmi les acclamations de la foule"...

Il fallait à tout va ajouter "les acclamations de la foule" pour quelqu'un qui voyageait en sécurité à quelques kilomètres mètres du sol.

[gérard menvussa]

Voyez vous maintenant clair? Comprenez vous pourquoi mettre sur un même plan Gadahfi et l'impérialisme c'est faire le jeu des impérialistes?

Ah je n'ai pas assez des mots de mépris et de condamnation pour une telle politique lâche et capitularde!

Mais on ne l'a jamais mis sur le même plan : un larbin des capitalistes n'est pas sur le même plan que les capitalistes eux mêmes : faudrait pas voir à mettre le loufiat sur le même plan que le maitre, quand même !

Et que le larbin ne soit pas content du tout quand il se fait éjecter par ses maitres ne change rien à sa nature profonde...

C'était déja le cas avec Noriéga, Sadam hussein et autres anti impérialistes "galonnés" qui n'ont jamais hésités a flirter avec les yankees quand leurs intérets sont du bon coté...

[Roseau]

Voyez vous maintenant clair? Comprenez vous pourquoi mettre sur un même plan Gadahfi et l'impérialisme c'est faire le jeu des impérialistes?

Mais de qui il parle?
Divagation et affabulation.
Eternel sectaire désoeuvré réservant sa paranoia aux orgas d'EG...
Ca occupe...

[irneh09218]

Voyez vous maintenant clair? Comprenez vous pourquoi mettre sur un même plan Gadahfi et l'impérialisme c'est faire le jeu des impérialistes?

Mais de qui il parle?
Divagation et affabulation.
Eternel sectaire désoeuvré réservant sa paranoia aux orgas d'EG...
Ca occupe...

"Tous ensemble" vous n'avez rien à envier au CNT de Libye.

Je rajouterais que Sarko prends moins de risques en se déplaçant en Libye que dans une cité de la région parisienne. Il aurait eu besoin de, non pas 160 CRS, mais de 1600 CRS.
Pour le reste ce n'est qu'un choix : combattre le choléra et la peste, ou se servir du choléra pour combattre la peste. Et ensuite en finir avec la peste.

[gérard menvussa]

se servir du choléra pour combattre la peste

Ca a beaucoup été tenté. En général, tu attrapes la chtouille...

Sarko prends moins de risques en se déplaçant en Libye que dans une cité de la région parisienne.

C'est une remarque tellement ridicule que je ne comprend même pas qu'on la discute. C'est comme :

vous n'avez rien à envier au CNT de Libye.

Tout ce qui est exagéré est insignifiant...

[irneh09218]

http://www.elpais.com/prom/201109/pro_photo1316164547.jpg


Erdogan prie à Tripoli :
http://www.prensa-latina.cu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=324180&Itemid=1

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